Talk:Tassadar

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It says he is Akilae precisely nowhere. His forces in Terran mission 9 are blue. His tribe is unknown, but the "Protoss Expeditionary Force" color was blue. PsiSeveredHead 22:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Still to do...

He explained the Overmind's plans; this needs to be added to the article. PsiSeveredHead 12:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tassadar's victory wasn't hollow

He destroyed Overmind and broken the unity of the Swarm, as well as saved all creation from Zerg/Protoss Hybrid Overmind intended to create. XEL

Oh, in the short term Tassadar's feat was quite something and if StarCraft had ended right there and then, that would be that. But it didn't end right there. We got Brood War, and in Brood War the Zerg bounced right back, continuing on as the galactic wrecking crew we all know and love. I guess that's what happens when you get new management, especially one who is the Queen Bitch of the Universe. As for the whole hybrid thing, again Tassadar merely delayed the emergence of such things. The hybrids remain very much a Sword of Damocles hanging over the StarCraft universe. Meco 10:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

But Tassadar prevented Overmind from creating Hybrid and saved Protoss races from being assimilated and all creation from being conquered by Hybrid. This is an important thing. XEL

As I said before: Tassadar merely delayed the Zerg a bit. Tassadar hardly irrevocably shut the door on the Zerg eating enough Protoss to undergo the "next big thing" and then continuing on their merry way throughout the cosmos. The Zerg are still poised to crash the Protoss party sometime in the future. And one suspects that something like that is afoot for StarCraft II, which is a mere five or so years after Brood War. Meco 21:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

XEL, you're making the a number of assumptions with your edit.

The first relates to the nature of the Overmind. In the briefings the Overmind claims that all the Zerg are within it and carry out its will, and from here you perceive that the Overmind both directs and sets the goal of the Zerg. However, there is another interpretation, in which the Zerg are not a reflection of the Overmind but rather that the Overmind is a reflection of the Zerg. In this case, the will of the Zerg really comes from the Zerg as a whole, while the Overmind merely serves as a forum for decision making. The same might be applied to Cerebrates. That the Overmind seems to be an 'individual' and the originator of all things Zerg is suspect. We know that even Cerebrates seem like individuals with wills of their own but by the Overminds view they are not. As an extension it seems prudent to be suspicious whether the Overmind can even tell itself from the Zerg. Given how the Overmind was originally created, it's strongly possible that it can't. Bottom line: we have no idea which interpretation is closer to whatever happens to be the truth, and it's best not to favour either.

Second: immediate assimilation of the Protoss. Whether the Overmind survived or not, it seems unlikely this was going to happen. If most of the devastation happened after the Zerg rampaged, then the Protoss would have had greater resources and the opportunity to use it once command of the war effort passed from the Conclave to more realistic heads. There is much leeway here for the Protoss to come out at least as well as in Brood War if not better. In this case, keeping the Overmind alive keeps the Zerg bent on controlled-destruction and gives the Protoss more time to do something constructive. This is not a formula for immediate assimilation.

If most of the devastation was wrought before the rampage then we're stuck with the Brood War outcome, with the Protoss abandoning Aiur ASAP whether the Overmind goes or not. And obviously there was no immediate assimilation here either. Of course, that's a Terran interpretation of immediate. Depending on what sort of time scale the Zerg operate on, as far as they're concerned the Protoss may still be slated for "imminent" assimilation sometime next decade or something.Meco 19:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Tassadar did save the universe by destroying the Overmind. Just listen to this:

"So you see my friends, we fight not only to save Aiur, but all creation! If we fall to the Zerg then the Overmind will run rampant throughout the stars, consuming all sentience-all life. It is up to us to put an end to this madness, once and for all."

And the confirmation for Tassadar's words:

"My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be...

Perfect."

So, Tassadar did save the universe by saving Protoss from being assimilated. And just as the article states, the survivors were now challenged to not squander this foothold into abyss by not letting the assimilation of Protoss to happen (for the Protoss) and stopping any future Hybrid threat (for all creation). XEL 19:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you understand the meaning of "hyperbole"? Of characters extrapolating with limited information? Consider: how can the Overmind know that even when it became perfect (by only its standards) that nobody else in the universe would be able to stop it? The universe, not just the little backwater of the Milky Way. And don't say it got it from the xel'naga, because we have very little knowledge on how much they knew either. Reaching for the extremes there would be equally hazardous. Meco 20:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Considering this is the main theme of SC Vanilla, I don't see any hyperbolic in this. The Overmind certainly could know, from the minds of Xel'Naga, since he get the information about the races from them. It is actually possible, since Zeratul said the Overmind came to finish their experiments. And the Hybrid, as we know from SC2 and Dark Origin are capable of unleahing the doom upon the universe. And again, the main theme and threat of SC Vanilla can't be just some exaggeration. It's like saying that the Burning Legion in WC3 and TBC was the threat only to Ashenvale and not to all Azeroth. XEL 07:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Besides:

"Using protoss DNA, the Overmind would produce the perfect killing machines: a new strain of zerg that would conquer the rest of creation." (Story So Far)

This wasn't said by any character. This implies that Blizzard agrees with the Overmind and Tassadar about the assimilation of the Protoss meaning the conquest of all creation by the Zerg. XEL 08:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Kinda intruding here, but for what it's worth, I think the nature of Tassadar's act lies somewhere in-between, as to what Tassadar really saved.

Keeping in with both eloquence and objectivity, it would perhaps be accurate to say that Tassadar saved creation "from the Overmind," which is true. He took the thing out that intended to erradicate or assimilate all life. On the other hand, it would be incorrect to say that he saved creation "from the zerg"-Kerrigan intends on completing the mission the Overmind started and the protoss are still fighting for their lives. Tassadar won an important battle, but certainly didn't win the war.--Hawki 10:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. That is the meaning of the phrase "the survivors were now challenged not to squander this foothold into the abyss". XEL 15:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Reviewing the "Story So Far" again, it seems Blizzard is content to adopt a narrow interpretation. Objection withdrawn. Meco 18:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It would make absolutely no sense for Blizzard to create the main threat of SC Vanilla, which is just "a narrow interpretation". Besides, we know very well that the Hybrid can unleash the doom upon the universe (if not, the main threat of SC2 is also "a narrow interpretation"). XEL 19:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the narrow interpretation: that the hybrids are not only expected to be some all-powerful unstoppable force once unleashed, but that they will be as well. Not only is there very little logic behind it (granted this is a nitpick given the universe isn't meant to be anywhere near logical), but it shuts down a myriad of other possibilities by making the end a forgone conclusion, short of some deus ex machina occuring. This is not intellectually satisfying to me, but that's the way Blizzard is taking it. Meco 19:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't see any lack of logic in the Overmind conquering all creation if it assimilates the Protoss. It is the main theme of SC Vanilla. Tassadar did save all creation from the Overmind (and "the surviviors were now challenged not to squander this foothold into abyss"), it's unreasonable to object this. After all, that's (the Overmind consuming all creation if assimilates the Protoss) is the canonical information, given be the three canonical sources, two of which are fully reliable. XEL 19:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

-sigh- Right, let's do this by steps. What proof is there that everything in the universe, now and in the future, is functionally inferior to the hybrid and/or the "perfected" zerg as envisioned by the Overmind? Meco 20:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Purity of Form + Purity of Essence. It appears to be established that the Protoss puity of form and the Zerg purity of essence together can form a perfect being. Both Xel'Naga ("the Overmind had at last come to finish the experiments they began" and Duran) and the Overmind (the Overmind surely could know this, since he got the knowledge of the Protoss from the Xel'Naga) know (they know much enough about both Protoss and Zerg to be competent in this).

2. The Story so Far statement. XEL 12:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Let' s keep it from an in-universe perspective first. The contradiction comes later.

All you've done is reiterate the xel'naga's definition, and not answered my question. But running with your non-answer for a bit: If there is some absolute scale of perfection then there is still no way we can tell how close the xel'naga's vision of "perfection" is to the top of the scale. All we know is that a combination of the protoss and zerg will meet the xel'naga's goal, which they label as perfection. (See relativism.)

Saying that, back to the original question. What is required to know that nothing else in the universe can stop the hybrids? And what proof do we have that the xel'naga possess that knowledge? And if the xel'naga have that knowledge, what proof do we have that the Overmind inherited it in its entirety? Meco 18:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Xel'Naga had this knowledge:

"the Overmind had at last come to finish the experiments they began so long ago" (and the Overmind said that the union of the Protoss Form and Zerg Essence will result in the perfect lifeform)

Overmind surely inherited this knowledge, because what he got from the Xel'Naga was the knowledge about proto-genesis and the memory of races. This is more than enough for him to know about the Protoss Purity of Form all the Xel'Naga did.

What is required to know that nothing else in the universe can stop the Hybrids?

The union of the Protoss Form and Zerg Essence. For this the certain Purity of Form and Purity of Essence are required.

And exactly what assets of the Purity of Form and the Purity of Essence form the perfect race when they come together isn't explained. And it isn't necessary, in fact. This is not the encyclopedia about the Protoss, Zerg and their Hybrid. XEL 18:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Xel'Naga had this knowledge:" Repeating that again and again without justification isn't enlightening. That the Overmind inherited some of the xel'naga's mindset does not establish the source or the scope of the knowledge that there vision of "perfection" is at the truly at the top the scale. You fail to address the relativist angle.

"The union of the Protoss Form and Zerg Essence. For this the certain Purity of Form and Purity of Essence are required." Doesn't answer my question. That's what they believed had to be done after they amassed the prerequisite knowledge. I want to know what sort of knowledge they needed to believe that was the right action, and whether that knowledge can be safely said to be sufficient to produce requirements for a truly perfect being on that hypothetical absolute scale. Meco 19:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)